@Briony ~ I mentioned points I don’t believe in to show that there is more than just two ideals and that they’re not all extremes. Those who believe in creationism don’t necessarily believe that God made everything as it is today and those that believe in evolution don’t necessarily disbelieve in God.

Personally I’m Agnostic, though closer to being Theist than Atheist, but I also believe in evolution considering we can see the effects of it daily (i.e. hedgehogs in areas with a lot of traffic are getting faster because the slower ones are getting run over).

Hope this answers your question.

PS Once again, please try not to read this as though I’m having a go at people. As Henry said, it’s difficult to get the right emotions across over the internet.

PPS Whilst I’m back I may aswell provide some sort of evidence of land masses sinking (or rather becoming submerged) since I coincidentally came across some earlier: http://www.afrik-news.com/article14350.html
It’s just one of a few I found but it isn’t that easy to find things like this in a few spare minutes at work (I remember hearing that Madagascar was supposed to be sinking so I thought I’d check it out).

Oya, and @ Darrbare

Sorry, I did try to read your post but, as you said, it’s a bit long ^^’ though most of what I did read, I agree with.

Sorry, this was quite a while ago and I was getting realy annoyed and tired with Adrian at the point I posted about a Global flood. What I meant was a massive flood. And there also seems to be some confusion, I wasn’t talking about water magically appearing out of nowhere. I was, infact, reffering to the redistribution of existing water mass, as you say it. As in the whole global warming thing (which, for sake of differing a further argument, I do NOT believe was caused by humans, though I do know we’re having an effect)

However, I must point out that it may be possible that majority of the land may someday become submerged in water (even if it isn’t by a whole lot) considering that some continents have already sunk in the past. If you ask for proof, I cannot provide this because I’m a lazy sod who can’t be bothered to see if anyone else has researched this and even if they did I doubt I’d have access to that information. If you want to find this out for yourself feel free to have a look and please tell me what you find.

And just to reconfirm as I think I said previously, I don’t necessarily believe in every point I place, I just don’t like it when people disregard everything even if there’s evidence or possibility.

PS Once again, sorry if this sounds like I’m being sarcastic of angry, unfortunately it just seems to be the way I type during debates. As a gesture of non-angryness here’s a smiley face –>

So I was on Facebook, and Some stranger posted a random link to this.

Thank Science!

First of all, I am a Double Major, I’m working towards a BS in Biology and a BA in Psychology.

This is going to be a ridiculously long post, I am afraid. If you don’t want to read it- No problem

So-
1- I think this is a hilarious post in the first place.
KUDOS!

@Etienne
- I have massive problems with your statements, reasonings, and logic.

1) As Mark repeatedly points out- A Theory is not a Hypothesis. There exists a hierarchy- Theory > Hypothesis. Realize this, embrace it, and move on.

2) Intelligent Design- The very thing this post was started off over ( I.E, the Ben Stein references) Is not a legitimate scientific hypothesis and therefore, cannot be a Theory. At least not a legitimate one. Intelligent Design is a cheap and fruitless rehashing of Creationism, the idea that God created the earth, and therefore, Created Evolution. When this idea was first constructed, it was to allow the teaching of Judeo-Christian ideology into the Biology Classroom. It’s a fucking joke. It famously used the platitude- ” Teach the controversy!!” Which was reanimated with its rehashing. The idea was laughed out of the public’s eye for a few years.

Then, Christians got crafty.

They reconstructed Creationism into a nonpartisan, non-ideological idea known as Intelligent Design. It is EXACTLY THE SAME CONCEPT, but in this variation, God is changed to “Something”. This allows the image of psuedo-openmindedness to permeate into the public sphere.

It was slapped down in the Dover case, and the when the supporters were asked, ” Isn’t this the same idea as intelligent design??” They said it wasn’t. Then, the judge called them “LIARS.”

It is the same petty scam to bring religion into the science classroom.

There is no “controversy”. There never was.

Creationists do not write scientific papers.

They do not write articles in scientific journals.

They are active in CHURCHES.

Just to clarify, CHURCH has almost NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE.

LAstly on this point.

There is no conspiracy to shut intelligent design down. The world awaits the day when Intelligent Design steps up to the plate. But for now, We will be content in laughing at it, for its such abrasive, abhorrent, and openly straight-forward purpose.

3) Please, if you are ever in public and want to be taken seriously by intelligent people, DO NOT QUOTE THE BIBLE. The bible is a book. To people like myself, a Staunch rationalist, the Bible is merely a book. Why not quote Dickens? Shakespeare? Orwell? A book is a book to me. It has no official power to change my mind. In fact, I think the bible is a load of garbage. It disgusts me that ONE BOOK can justify so many thousands of lifestyles, religions, and ideas. It is a joke. Do not quote any more bible passages. It’s disrespectful to any smart person. It’s a stigma unto my face.

4) Evolution is most certainly not a religion. I wish it were, so I could give cash to it, and then be reimbursed by your tax dollars. But it is not. That is simply untrue. Evolution is a scientific theory that has been backed with loads of evidence. It is on par with The Theory of Gravitation, the Cell Theory, The Laws of Thermodynamics. etc. In fact, without Evolution, Biology makes no sense. It’s all a load of rubbish if evolution is untrue. Let me refer to the name REAL scientists refer to Evolution by- The Unifying Theory Of Biology. There is no Unifying theory of Physics. A possible Proponent would be String Theory. But realize that Evolution is crucial to Biology.

5) Understanding of Atheism- You said that being an Atheist is something which simply Deters one away from God, but then you imply that some Atheists are religious. I have never met someone who was Atheist and still “believed”? In a religion. If that were true, I could become an Atheistic Catholic!! Bravo!

If one rejects the idea of a God, it strongly damages the religion. Believing in the religion even further is a joke. So- No, Atheists never will be Religious and Atheistic. Not at the same time, at least.

6) Get your fucking facts straight. I am literally red with anger. This all regards a paragraph of UTTER BULLSHIT you wrote about Darwin, His Faith, His relationship with his wife, understanding of Him as an intelligent person. modern genetic study, Misquotation, and, in general, a complete misunderstanding of evolution. I am disgusted!
- A) Darwin was religious for a very long time. He struggled with the publishing of ORIGIN, and only did so with request from his friends, for the storm it would stir up for he and his wife.

-B) His wife was very religious. Let us remember that In that time, and in some cases, in this time, Christians of a certain denomination did not often marry someone of a different denomination.

-C) Darwin learned of the Law Of Superposition. It is central to evolution. He was not a Geologist. Neither am I. But I don’t need a Geological Degree to understand it. I don’ think that any smart person does. Google it, and realize how simple it is. A child can, and children do, understand it to perfection of the idea.

-D) People are capable of love. He did indeed love his wife. I should cringe to wonder at your definition of marriage. He didn’t marry her for what he considered good genes. He didn’t think in his head, ” OH! She has great genes!! Our offspring could be stronger and better!!” And the point you make at the end of the paragraph, that since his children grew sick due to inbreeding- This was not known at the time!! He had no idea of it. Your point seems to be- That since Darwin applied his theory unto himself and his wife, and his children were weak and died- Disproves evolution- YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING!!! REALLY?!!?!?!? Ugh, epic logic fail, on your part. Also, “survival of the fittest”, was never ever coined by Darwin. HE NEVER SAID THAT.

E)-
“This information about Darwin is not usually communicated because the main reason that this theory is so widely accepted is because it gets rid of all morality. (no God to answer to anymore) ”

…… Really? You’re really going to make a discriminatory, unsupported, conflicted, irrational, and Shit-headed claim like that?!

Lets do some simple math, just so you can take that point and bury it, FOREVER.

With liberal estimates, there are approximately 3 Million Atheists in America.

There are approximately 2.3 Million people in prison in california alone.

So, who is truly immoral?? Are all the Atheists getting together and raping stealing, and destroying!!?? In fact, Atheists tend to be higher up on the pay scale. We are usually collegiate. Sorry, pal, but it’s the religious of America who fill the prisons to the top. It’s the religious who rape women. It’s Parish priests who rape little boys and girls. It’s religious men in gangs. Have you ever picked up a history book? When have you EVER heard of an Atheistic holy war? Religion is a fucking plague.
I am moral. Until just recently I had a woman who I longed to marry. I wanted to have children, make a home, grow old with her, and enjoy her until I died. Although circumstances changed and I no longer love her, I truly did love her. Atheists are capable, and indeed more loving and moral than our religious counterparts.

Who is more moral? I, who sincerely is moral by my own choice, with no regard for consequences, for no reward for being good and moral-

Or you? A big, fucking faker, who only is good so you can GET SOMETHING. You are good …..for WHAT!? To get to go to heaven? You’re view of morality is shallow, fragile, and gaudy.

And in fact, Evolution answers you in a full show of its brilliance- Reciprocative Altruism. Google it, you tard.

F)-Time to start debunking all the pseudo-scientific bullshit you put out there :/

–1) Evolution does not state where earth comes from. It simply explains how it happened. You actually seem to be pitting all of science VS your religion, and at the same time, ( rather hypocritically, might I point out) using science to disprove…..Science……Yeah.

–2) Really?? Hovind? That guy is a fucking joke. Come on, wake up, stop smoking pot, and go take Biology courses at a STATE university. YOu’ll quickly find that Hovind’s arguments blow.

–3) Lets go with your ideas on matter and thermodynamics- Which I do applaud, I must say.

Instead of asking Scientists to figure everything out, why don’t YOU figure something out? Why don’t you pray to god for the answer? Going with your argument, -basically, if there is no god, what made everything? Well, lets say God is real. What made God?? What made the maker of that Macro-Deitical being??? Come on, Mr. Evangelical! Give me a real answer! You won’t of course.

–4) Lets review the Conservation of Angular Momentum. Things TEND to move out in a circular vector. They also TEND to spin in one direction. But some particles will immediately collide with other particles. Some particles will have a stray vector, which will cause it to move awkwardly. This all must take place without friction. As soon as the huge heat explosion begins to occur, radiations of different kinds bombard all the matter. Atoms fly this way and that, electrons are literally ripped off of atoms. Friction now occurs, and you point is invalidated. The system, while it is a vacuum, is still very effected by gravity, and radiation, and energy. Lets Fast-forward many years. Now Huge chunks of particles are beginning to form in such a pattern as we will call the milky way. Planets with large masses can use gravity to pull other smaller objects off course, and out of their certain spin cycle. Your point is defeated.

–5) The little burning sun point is a joke. Modern science knows so very little about things. A 300, or even a 300 MILLION year observation period would not be sufficient to make an accurate evaluation of what is going on. Perhaps the sun only recently started burning faster. Remember, the world is very old. 3 BILLION Years, Appx. If we reach our hand into a bag, and pull out one blue marble, we can only assume that the rest of the bag must have blue marbles. If we take 10 marbles, and get 10 blue marbles, we will assume they are all blue. If the bag really had 1 million marbles, with only 100 Blue marbles, then our assumption is worthless. We are only seeing a small picture view of the sun, We only have limited samples of data. It’s far too early to be digging for obscure conclusions which ( Hilariously, and not coincidentally) attempt to maim evolution.

–6) Distance to the moon argument- No one that I have heard of ever said that our oceans were always in motion. Indeed, microbes can exist in stagnate water. ( At the surface, since they will need O2, or CO2) But that’s hardly the point. The moon’s relatively momentary proximity means nothing to our terrestrial history of billions of years.

–7)C14 dating is not the only means of dating. There are several other means of dating things. Huh, interesting how you know SO much about C14, but failed to mention even one of the other ( I know of 4 other means of dating, but there may be more I am unaware of) 4 ways of dating fossils.

That said- Lets deal with your pseudoscience. Carbon 14 cannot form with more magnetic energy?? I think our Bullshit alarms should be going off. Secondly, cite some sources. This is kiddy crap. Name some studies, journals, or papers. I would be glad to go out and purchase them for my own enlightenment. ( PS- Don’t give me some Evangelical Link. I’ll be very offended. )

“Tests” indicate….. What?? WHAT TESTS?? You fail to explain that last critical part of it, which is of course the fountain head of the argument :/

Really?? Of course Biological beings use C of any form for our macromolecules. In most Biological settings, it is possible for atoms to remain radioactive for extended periods of time, as the individual atoms are in strong bonds, which keep radioactive decay to a minimum.

WOW. Dinosaurs were related to Dragons?? Hmmmm, sounds like evangelical Bullshit :/ The word Dragon is derived from Greek- Water Snake. Hmmm, did snakes = Dinosaurs?? I think not.

Look, stop blindly believing everything your church teaches you. Man did not walkthe Dinosaurs. That is a joke, a fable, a religious Myth.

Missing link…….Go to a Museum of Natural History. There is no such thing as A MISSING LINK. Take a Physical Anthropology course. The idea of a “Missing Link” is a myth that was propagated largely by conservative christian groups in the 80s and 90s.

This is 2010. Move on from ignorance :/

LASTLY- Finally.

Stop trying to find flaws in evolution. Stop lying. Stop the self-deceit. l really am tired of reading your posts, hoping there will be something of actual factual value. Evolution is a solid theory. Science does not pretend to find absolute “Truth.” Science only seeks to find the most plausible explanation for the data given. It is not your religion. It does not pretend to have all the answers. Your petty religion is threatened by reality. This is a tragedy, as not religions seek to damage the truest understanding of reality.

Ask any question of religion, ask how X could occur, and I will answer you. Evolution is really quite beautiful, one of the most beautiful ideas ever crafted by the caring and gentle palms of mankind. It should revered and treasured, not constantly under attack.

So ask me any question about an inconsistency of evolution, and I will try to fully refute it.

____________________________________………………+++++++))))

@ Camille-

Mark did not bother as i did to debunk the pseudoscientific claims of Etienne because many of them were sheerly ridiculous. The point about Darwin, genetic superiority….etc, honestly made me laugh. It was just full of misconception.

“I would like to see their rebuttal for such well set-forth arguments.”- You clearly feel that this is an US VS THEM situation. Why do you feel that way? We are all part of humanity. We are all together in an apathetic uncaring world. Who are you to join a side in tearing another side apart??

Okay, next I am going to paste your post, and argue ( Not for Adrian, but simply in spite of your poor logic, almost argue FOR logic’s sake.)

“I can understand where you are coming from … but again, you have side-stepped the issue. I can appreciate your dedication to the terminology of science…but again we must admit that “theories are not true in science, at least in the regular sense of the word true”

…..True. Versus ….What? The Bible? A book written by men who literally shat in their fellow man’s water supply?

“Have you ever read the Bible? This I must ask you because so many ‘discoveries’ were in the Bible before they were ever discovered. God’s word – He created it – He should know.”

-I would like to take this chance to say this- I have read the bible in its entirety. Just so I can fairly say I gave it a chance. Old Testament is honestly brutish and Vile. I do not know how you can read passages about a husband giving his wife up to be gangbanged to death by multiple men- and then say- ” Look at all the morality!!” I feel that Christians are generally hypocrites, as they seem to ignore the brutality, sexism, hatred, and racism in Old Testament. I do not know of ANY discoveries of the bible. I vainly long for the phrase, ” And the bacterium’s peptidoglycan-based primary cell wall will keep certain stains in, and let others escape.”

“Secondly, from what I have read and understood of Darwin’s theory of evolution – most all of his presumptions have been invalidated. If there are any still out there – I’m sure with the way the biological sciences have been growing by leaps and bounds they will soon be invalidated as well.”

What are you talking about??

Darwin’s theory is very well alive. It is actually further validated by continued fossil finds, DNA, and modern genetics. It remains the UNIVERSAL THEORY OF BIOLOGY for a reason.

“How many invalidations does it take to final put to death a theory in science? How long before the scientific community at the time finally, finally accepted the fact that the earth was round? Just because you really, really want to believe something ’scientifically’ does not mean that it is true – that is in the regular sense of the word true.”

We could say here that just because you want to believe in a giant mystical being, tritely nominalized as GOD, this longing provides no actual REASON for such a belief.

“So – we are left with the holes in Carbon14 dating – which have been validated. We are left with many fakes, lies, and deceits that the ’scientific community’ has tried to push off as ‘fact’, and we are left with from where did the matter of evolution – if we truly did evolve – come? A few simple questions.”

I must say- Fakes, lies and deceits????? Oh! But religion never does that!!
Sorry, you’re just filled to the brim with bias and emotion in this last one :/

“…and my answer is the same. When I look at all that has been created from the tiniest to the greatest – as I learn different facts throughout the years about different animals and plant – any form of life – I sit back in wonder at the great Creator – our Father in heaven and His wonderful son – who were in the beginning and continue to be and think ‘Wow!’. My validation is all around me every day – and His word backs it up.”

-I think it is more beautiful and romantic to marvel in evolution, the miraculous force with created the appearance of necessity of design, rather than to simply cheapen everything with a trite, outlandish, ” God Did it.”

PS- I refer to the notion of an ultimate creator as a SHE. It just makes me laugh, the rampant sexism.

Okay- just in response to your post, number 31- Of course texts can be wrong. Science is doing its best. It tries to give the best answer available. I imagine your daughter’s school had outdated texts. Schools cannot afford to stay up to date with science. It is ever-changing, always trying to give us a little bit more information about reality.

Versus religion and the bible…..Which stagnantly pretend to have ultimate truth. Which never change. Which never want anything more for their followers than……to take money from them.

Back to your daughter’s biology class.
The text- at least in reference to the Vermiform Appendix – was not, and is not out of date. Yes, it is true that scientists thought it was for digestion. This is not so crazy of a thing. In some other mammals, the appendix houses bacteria which can convert cellulose ( basically indigestible fiber for humans) Into glucose fragments. This seems similar in humans, as the area is similar, and anatomically, the appendixes seemed familiar. But this is where you are wrong. Evolution is not a one way train. For example, the Creationist staple argument is- The Eye or the Wing are just too complex to evolve by themselves!!”

But, the nub of the wing never began its existence to become a wing. It went from nub ( To help in thermoregulation) to archaic claw, to claw, to wing. It never started out in an all out rush for wing-dom. Neither did the eye. Neither did the appendix. In hunter-gatherer groups, humans ate much much more fibrous plant materials. It makes perfect sense that it functioned for digestion. But as we begin to other less fibrous things, it becomes less necessary, and it begins to take on other functions.

So, go take your “Wishful thinking” and shove it up…..You know where.

This is important.

If I say there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, then you can say- Prooveeee it! The burden of proving it is on me.

If you say there is an invisible lady called god in the sky, the burden of proof lies with YOU.

Lastly.

You seem like a typical evangelical. Why though?? Why would you take her out of school?? So she is socially mal-adapted? If evolution was really false, why fear it?? Why cower in fear??

So, Creationists large and small- Answer this 2-part question, legitimately, and I will submit.

Why do we share so much DNA with plants, animals, microorganisms, and even fungi?? Did god get lazy with inventing gene sequences?? I mean, she’s god!!

And-
Why, in plants and animals, do mitochondria and chloroplast have DNA?? I mean, no other organelles have dna. Why do mitochondria and chloroplasts divide independently of their eukaryotic guardians?? I mean, it almost seems like perhaps they were once cells themselves!!

Phew.

That took 2 hours!!

Lol